Ambassador Ischinger on CNN's Lou Dobbs Moneyline on March 3, 2003

(transcript)

LOU DOBBS: Disagreement over policy in Iraq has turned relations between Germany and the U.S. into a high profile dispute. Berlin is refusing to support Washington in a military campaign if it’s required to remove Saddam Hussein from power.
In taking this approach, Germany has turned its back on more than 50 years of close military and political cooperation with the United States. Some independent analysts are questioning whether Germany will remain a U.S. ally in the future.
To learn more about Germany’s views and a prospect for that relationship, we’re joined now by Ambassador Wolfgang Ischinger, the German ambassador to this country.
Mr. Ambassador, good to have you with us.

AMBASSADOR WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: A pleasure to be here tonight.

DOBBS: How substantial, how lasting do you see this rift between the German government and that of the United States on the issue of Iraq?

ISCHINGER: Well, you know, I arrived in this country on 9/11. I was here the morning it happened. And I understand the threats that America feels. Our question is, by eliminating the Iraqi regime, are we really going to reduce that particular threat of international terrorism? I think most Americans are not aware of the fact that we are and continue to be among your closest allies in the fight against international terrorism. Do Americans know and understand that we have 10,000 soldiers deployed overseas, side by side with Americans to defeat the Taliban, to maintain stability in Afghanistan, in the Balkans and elsewhere? So, you know, our relationship is much broader and richer than just the difference which exists over the question of how to proceed on Iraq. So I’m not really concerned as much as some others may be over the future of the German/American partnership.

DOBBS: Ambassador, you understand this country very well. You’ve been here for some considerable time, serving the Schröder government. Gerhard Schröder is in - he’s not enjoying what I would call a surge of popularity at home. And the Schröder government made much of the dispute over Iraq in the domestic elections. How much of the policy that Germany is following, in your judgment, is domestically a consideration? What factor, what element would you say that is?

ISCHINGER: Well, let me start by saying, Lou, that we should not forget that it was exactly this Chancellor Schröder that we’re talking about here who was the only Western leader who took a personal political risk in November of 2001, right after 9/11, to make it possible for Germany to deploy troops in Afghanistan. We declared ourselves to be in solidarity. In fact, we used the term "unlimited solidarity" with the United States. And that’s where we still are.

DOBBS: You don't think we’ve hit a few limits here?

ISCHINGER: Well, even on the issue of Iraq, yes, it is true that we disagree about the need to go to war right now. But I totally disagree with what’s been said about Germany, you know, opposing this. We are actually helping Americans to do what they believe must now be done. We are protecting American installations in Germany with thousands of German troops. Is that known in America? I have not seen a single article about it. We have sent Patriot missiles to Israel, to help defend Israel. We’ve sent Patriot missiles and other material to Turkey to help defend Turkey. In other words, we are one of your most active allies. There is no nation in the world that has more troops deployed with the United States than Germany. We have over 10,000 now. And when you consider that my country, as recently as six and seven years ago, had zero, we have come a very long way. And we’re doing it with America, not against America.

DOBBS: I think we should say, Ambassador, and I quite take your point in terms of the deployment of German forces. But the British have deployed and are in the process of deploying more than 40,000 troops to the region in the coalition. The German reluctance to disarm Saddam Hussein by force, if necessary, is in this country, in some quarters, very difficult to understand, because he represents with - there is no question whatsoever, represents an absolute rebuke to the United Nations. He has not permitted inspections until they were forced upon him by, as you would say this chancellor, I will say, this president. The Bush administration, in your judgment, I would be curious to know how much credit do you give President Bush and his administration for - through the United Nations, forcing this new round of inspections, which has already been quite - without previous consideration, found the Al Samoud missiles, how much credit do you give the Bush administration for driving this inspection process to begin with?

ISCHINGER: I think, Lou, we’re giving President Bush a great deal of credit. He went - you’re absolutely right he went to the United Nations. The United States was the driving force behind this famous resolution 1441. Fifteen - you know, to nothing, unanimous resolution. We agree that Saddam Hussein must disarm now. We agree he is a threat. We agree that he probably still has, from the ‘80s and ‘90s, some weapons of mass destruction. So that’s not really in dispute. The only thing that’s in dispute is, is it necessary, in the light of what’s been happening recently, to go to war now? And if I may add one point.

DOBBS: Surely.

ISCHINGER: You know, from a German point of view, I hope that Americans can understand that, from a German point of view, with our national history, a country that has gone to war repeatedly for the wrong reasons, isn’t it OK for us to be even more concerned and more skeptical about the use of military force than other nations? We want to use military force really only as the very, very, very last resort, because we have used it in the past not as a last resort. And I think that is actually to our credit. So, you know, I don’t think that we should discuss this only in sort of the terms of are we for or against the United States? I understand the policy of the Bush administration. And I think there are good arguments to be made for it. But I think there are also good arguments for our point of view. If the inspections have produced some results, why not let them continue? Maybe they’ll produce more. And let’s use military force only if we can demonstrate that all other means are exhausted. That’s basically our position, and I think that’s not a dishonest position.

DOBBS: Nor do I, Mr. Ambassador. Nor would I suggest otherwise. And I don’t believe President Bush has ever expressed anything that would suggest he doesn’t think the German position and the French position are sincere. It is clear, also, though, that this president means to have Saddam Hussein disarmed. If you acknowledge that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, if you acknowledge that this president, this administration, has driven these inspections, which are now to this point, resulted in the destruction of at least 16 of the Al Samoud missiles, that he’s in violation of the most recent resolution that this president went before the Security Council with almost, now, six months ago, what end does - where does the German patience find end?

ISCHINGER: I admire the American patience. You know, I’m a professional diplomat. I have great respect for how the Bush administration is handling this matter right now. They are, at this moment, not putting the draft resolution in New York to a vote. They are actually also giving this process a little more time. Now, we believe we should give it a little more time than just a little bit. I don’t think that our difference is really that fundamental, so long as we speak about the disarmament of Saddam Hussein. Yes, we share the disarmament goal. Yes, we support it. No, we don’t think war is necessary at this point. And, of course, no, we don’t think that our shared objective is the objective of regime change, because the UN resolution, which we have all written together and supported together, does not really endorse that particular objective. But the full disarmament is something which we share.

DOBBS: Mr. Ambassador, we thank you for being here to help us better understand the position of the Schröder government, the German government. And as you suggest, we all hope it doesn’t result in long-lasting or irreparable damage to a long-standing relationship. Ambassador Wolfgang Ischinger, thank you.

ISCHINGER: Thank you. A pleasure to be on your show, Lou.

Aired on March 3, 2003 on CNN

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