Excerpts from an Interview CHARLIE ROSE with Ambassador Wolfgang Ischinger
on Monday, March 10, 2003 (PBS)

CHARLIE ROSE: Joining me now is Wolfgang Ischinger, Germany's ambassador to the United States. I am pleased to have him on this program. Welcome.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: It’s a pleasure to be here.

CHARLIE ROSE: My pleasure to have you. Why is Germany opposed to the possibility of war against Iraq when the president said it's that country under the leadership of Saddam Hussein threatens America's national security?

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: … We have to ask two questions. … The first question is, do we believe that defeating Iraq will reduce the threat of terrorist attacks against our cities, our nations? And the second question is, as far as disarming Iraq is concerned … can that be done without waging war? … Our first priority … after 9/11 … was the fight against terrorism, which we have been engaging in. We are one of America's best allies in that fight. Some Americans seem to forget that Chancellor Schroeder was the only western leader ... who actually took a personal political risk to … obtain approval by the German bundestag … to deploy troops to Afghanistan through vote of confidence.

CHARLIE ROSE: I don't know that they’ve forgotten it. I am not sure most people even know that.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: Most people probably don’t know that. He won it by a margin of two, almost lost his job over it.

CHARLIE ROSE: What did that say? You point that out because it says what?

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: It says we are in this fight with the United States....

CHARLIE ROSE: Against terrorism.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: ...Against terrorism. And we continue to be committed to that fully, totally. We have, you know, Charlie, we have a total of 10,000 soldiers deployed worldwide today, and you know that as recently as six or seven years ago we had zero. Our nation was not participating in that kind of activity. Today we have 5,000 in the Balkans, 3,000 … in Afghanistan, thousands in the Indian Ocean. We are one of your most active allies in the fight against international terrorism, and that's our number-one priority. We've said and we continue to feel that the attack against the World Trade Center was an attack against all of us, against western civilization, against our nations, … against all of us collectively.

CHARLIE ROSE: Now the administration-- and they make this distinction or certainly Sec. Powell makes this distinction-- that they're not suggesting that there was direct evidence of a connection between Iraq and 9/11, but there is some evidence of a connection between-- as the president said-- between the government of Saddam Hussein and terrorist organizations. There is some connection there.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: Well, be that as it may, my government tends to feel that that connection....

CHARLIE ROSE: Is not improving.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: ...Has not been shown to be a particularly strong one. Then again, we don't know, do we? So that takes us to the question of how do we deal with this disarmament issue? First of all, we are committed not only to being on America's side in the fight against disarmament, we are also on America's side when it comes to disarming Iraq. We were actually not on the Security Council when this famous resolution 1441 was adopted, but we endorsed it a few weeks later at the NATO summit, like all the other NATO countries. We said we support this objective.

CHARLIE ROSE: This was the resolution which passed sixteen to nothing.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: Right, a unanimous vote. We are with you when it comes to disarming Iraq. We have said over and over and over again ... that we demand the full and unconditional and immediate disarmament of Iraq. But we also believe that there has been something … the last month or two … that is beginning to work. It's not beginning to work well, but it's beginning to go work a little bit: That is, the inspection process. That's why we think the moment to wage war has not come.

… The old inspection process in the '90s managed … to bring out more nuclear and chemical and biological stuff, material, various things, than were destroyed in the actual Persian Gulf War.

CHARLIE ROSE: What's the difference between the German position and the French position as you see it, two neighboring countries in Europe?

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: Well, I'm not authorized to define and interpret the French position, but I can tell you something about the German position. I think … there are a couple of specific things about the German position that should be mentioned. One of them is how Germans think about war. I've been amazed at how different Germans think about war as compared to, say, Americans.

CHARLIE ROSE: Why?

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: Well, very simply, in our collective experience in Germany, war is something that in the last century was repeatedly started by my own country. We found out that we started wars for the wrong reasons. We found out that war ended in terrible catastrophic defeat, not only for ourselves but … for our neighbors, that there was... the Holocaust. … The worst possible things are associated in the German mind with war. War is not something that my 93-year-old father ever wishes to see endorsed again, even though he fought in a war for six years. But he doesn't want to talk about it anymore. He's had it. And many Germans and their children and their grandchildren feel like that. ... I believe I understand how Americans think about war, and they have reason to think about it totally differently because you did not wage war to enlarge your territory. You have been waging wars for example to liberate others from dictators … it's a totally different concept. … Germans do not wish to go to war. That doesn't mean that all Germans are pacifists. Germans understand that war, that the use of military force, may, in fact, be necessary. They accept this element of reality that military force may be necessary but they want to be sure … that it is the very, very, very, very last resort.

CHARLIE ROSE: The president believes-- believes, according to him-- the threat to America's national security and everything changes, he says, after 9/11, the threat to America's national security if Saddam Hussein can acquire weapons or build on his existing weapons of mass destruction they may fall into the hands of people who threaten America's national security. He makes that link. He sees that threat. As much as your government saw the threat of Milosevic at the time of the Kosovo War. That's a hard one.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: You know, Charlie, my first working day as the German ambassador in this country was actually 9/11. It was my first working day. I was here. I believe, I therefore, understand the....

CHARLIE ROSE: How it changed everything.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: … How it changed the views … not only of Pres. Bush and his administration but … of many Americans. . Their view of how they have to manage and safeguard their own security. It is an amazing thing to see that … two things happened to this country almost simultaneously. You have unique power. No country ever had that kind of power in the history ... At the same time, this country has an acute sense of vulnerability. You have enormous power and an unprecedented sense of vulnerability at the same time.

CHARLIE ROSE: Over the weekend, the French foreign minister Dominique De Villepin, said in a piece with Elaine Shelino in the New York Times I think he said this in other places-- we're... I'm taking the position and my government is taking the position not because we hate America but because we love America so much somehow as if they are trying to save America from itself. I mean, is there something in the German attitude about that too that somehow we think America is off on a journey that will do terrible damage to it?

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: … I'm full of admiration of the way that Americans conduct this debate which is a divisive debate among Americans also. I've met many who are strongly in favor of the administration and others who are equally strongly opposed.

CHARLIE ROSE: And some who call themselves reluctant hawks.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: I've had a chance to participate and watch a discussion the other night between Sen. McCain on the one hand and Sen. Levin. I was really in admiration of how civilized this debate is being conducted. What I cannot understand is that when governments like my own express questions and points of view which are … identical, … to those of, … Sen. Levin or others … why does it have to be that we are being accused of being of ill will, of being anti-American …? I think it's important that we stop the name calling across the Atlantic. I think we should recognize that we, like you, … like you the Bush administration, we are all searching for the right answer. … Unless we keep talking to one another without calling one another names, we're not going to be doing a good job to maintain our essential community of interest because above and beyond the question of Iraq, we are in this together. And that's my answer to your question. I think the German … rationale is not to let America and Europe or America and Germany start drifting apart. That's the last thing we want to see. We want America to remain committed and engaged in Europe. In fact, we want America to be a European power.

CHARLIE ROSE: Then tell me what the consequences are as you see it if the United States goes ahead with the war against Iraq in the absence of a favorable vote in the Security Council and despite a veto by France and Russia.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: Well, I mean, let me put it this way. As a professional diplomat, I have to be an optimist until a minute after 12:00. I do not believe in the inevitability of vetoes and of this kind of a scenario that you describe.

CHARLIE ROSE: You don't think the United States will go ahead in spite of....

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: I think the United States is quite determined to go ahead, sure. I don't question that. I think it's important that Iraq understands that it must disarm now. The ball is, I don't think, neither in Berlin nor in Washington. It's in Baghdad. And they still have a chance, this whole week, maybe into early next week or so, to avert the risk of war. I think that's the one thing on which we are united. That's the first thing we should continue to say together: The Bush administration, my government, and all the other members of the Security Council because we do agree on that with the Russians and the Chinese and everyone else. The ball is in Baghdad. If we cannot reach agreement, if, as you suggest, there is military action, say, without a second resolution or against a veto, it would certainly not make things easier.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: … My government has always been a strong defender of, you know, of the importance of the U.N. and in particular of the Security Council even though we are not a permanent member of the Security Council. … We welcomed the fact that Colin Powell a month ago went to the Security Council. He could have chosen to hold a press conference in Washington, but he went to the Security Council to present the evidence, which he thought he should present. I think that we have had an unprecedented demonstration of how important everyone believes the U.N. Security Council is by the very fact that our foreign ministers, the secretary of state and all the other foreign ministers have now … congregated here in New York at the Council for … the third time. Maybe there will be a fourth time and a fifth time. In other words, everyone agrees this is important. … if I had to give advice, I would say keep doing it this way. Don't listen to those who say that it's irrelevant in the first place and it will not help … I do not believe, Charlie, in what some in Washington are saying when they speak of the... of the fact that power … legitimizes, …, the self-legitimizing role of power. I don't believe in that. … I think the United States as the only world power needs to have a framework to legitimize its action … . It's hard to be a leader. It's tough to be the only leader because you create resentment. It's very tough. But as Henry Kissinger has said repeatedly, the trick is for a super power not to lead by … domination but by persuasion, to convince others to follow your lead and to convince others to look at you as a benign leader, a leader who ... has in mind not only his own narrowly defined national interests but the interests of all. That is precisely what, in our German view, the United States has been doing for the last 50 years. That is why we in Western Europe accepted U.S. leadership throughout the era of the Cold War. … I would say to Americans, you know how to do it. Just keep doing what you did over the last 50 years. We accept your leadership. But you have to do it in a way that makes it possible for us to say … this is enlightened leadership. They think of their interests but also of … . European interests … . That's what it's all about. …

CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you for coming.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER: Thank you.

CHARLIE ROSE: Great to have you here. Wolfgang Ischinger, Germany's ambassador to the United States. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

Advanced Search    Help

Statements & Speeches

Subscribe Here You can also read the current issues here.

Printer-Friendly Page